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PostPosted: Thu Aug 08, 2013 7:08 am 
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THERE WAS NO EVIDENCE OF A CRIME... let alone evidence linking Joran Van der Sloot to it.

It was another example of the sort of hysteria we see in GZ case. Even WORSE and I might add the same old dingbats posting now about GZ.. also posted about Natalee Holloway. And Bakerprune lead the Mob on the Holloway case in same way as she is doing now. One side of discussion was shut down... I would not be silenced (as you might imagine) and so got a Time Out... but I came back and argued some more :)

It was US hysteria that caused Aruba to arrest Joran and the Kalpoes.... a response to the Twitty/US media/lynch mob demands... "All we want is an arrest".... sound familiar?

They got 3 arrests (4 if you count Joran's Dad being locked up briefly) THAT was a travesty. A 17 year old boy locked up in solitary for 3 months and interrogated daily... with NO CHARGES and not any idea what the "crime" might be.
But of course... an arrest was not enough... they wanted charges (just like for GZ)... and despite there being ZERO evidence... they wanted Murder, rape, and anything else they could imagine (just like GZ).
There is no PROOF that NH is dead... her father insisted she remain on missing person list (until recently)... what in heaven's name would you charge anybody with? The "case" was ludicrous in the extreme. I could go on.

Suffice to say.. it was the same sort of appeasement to mob hysteria as we have now with GZ... and similarly the Lynch Mob have never accepted what the evidence shows..... NOTHING!



BTW
I would rather NOT redo the whole Holloway disappearance again.
Joran Van Der Sloot was NEVER even charged, so in that sense he is even more in the clear than GZ is :)

It was all EIGHT YEARS ago!!!

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 08, 2013 8:48 am 
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I understand everything you wrote. Maybe I'm being a bit nit-picky, but I personally do not know what evidence was collected by Aruban LE. That's all I'm saying. :)

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 08, 2013 9:47 am 
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I can already tell that I am going to be like a broken record on this forum (board?)...


Blame Main Stream Media!


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 08, 2013 11:27 am 
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Always a good answer, BertaBlue! :)

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 08, 2013 3:57 pm 
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liesel wrote:
I understand everything you wrote. Maybe I'm being a bit nit-picky, but I personally do not know what evidence was collected by Aruban LE. That's all I'm saying. :)

Yes you do know.

There were no "discovery documents" but the investigation WAS reported in detail. Subject to a judicial review locally... then an independent review by DUTCH judiciary.

We know as much and more as one ever finds out about a case (outside Florida Sunshine)

We also KNOW that Beth Twitty private investigators found nothing, Texas EquuSearch found nothing. In depth investigations by US news networks found nothing. Dr Phil doctored audio tapes (sound familiar) You can hear original and doctored tape ( sound familiar).

To say "you don't know" is a cop out.

This case WAS VERY MUCH like the GZ case. One of the reasons I got attracted to GZ case was "De ja vu all over again"

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 20, 2013 1:57 am 
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Nieuwe feiten over verdwijning van Natalee Holloway
door Anna Vossers 17 okt 2013

http://www.elsevier.nl/Buitenland/nieuw ... -1391790W/


GOOGLE TRANSLATION:

New facts about disappearance of Natalee Holloway
by Anna Vossers 17 Oct 2013

The police investigation of the Natalee Holloway case has focused too much on the role of the Dutchman Joran van der Sloot. The investigation file shows that several new facts in the disappearance case.

Focal Reporter sends a program from which this statement is substantiated tonight. According to journalist Vincent Verweij it is possible that the media hype around Joran van der Sloot the true events of the fatal night when Holloway disappeared, has veiled. Although the chance that Van der Sloot had to do with the disappearance, there would be others may have been involved.

Assault
One is that nine days before the disappearance of American Holloway another woman is sexually assaulted in a fisherman's hut on the beach of Aruba, in the place where Holloway disappeared. The assailant was on the day of the disappearance of Holloway at large.

The suspect, who was heard by the police then went to Colombia.

Key
It also shows the keys of Holloway be to open after she was already gone. her hotel room at night even used three times It is not clear who did it.

In theory, Natalee, possibly drugged on the beach left by Joran van der Sloot may have awakened yet and have walked to her room. The Aruban police have renounced her roommates, with whose key Natalee can be interchanged to hear properly.

DJ
Thirdly, a DJ, who was interrogated in the case, lied. He said the U.S. was dropped off somewhere with a car and that she was still in order.

Camera images of that location showed that the DJ was lying. But the police investigation was so focused on the suspect Joran van der Sloot, the DJ has never had to explain why he invented facts.

Disappearance
Natalee Holloway disappeared on May 30, 2005 when she was on holiday in Aruba. In 2012 she officially declared dead.

There have never been found remains of Holloway. The U.S. was last seen in the company of Dutchman Joran van der Sloot,
who has made several statements about her disappearance. He calls himself a pathological liar. Van der Slott is currently imprisoned in Peru for the murder of his girlfriend, Stephany Flores

Translation at link....
http://translate.google.com/translate?s ... 2F&act=url

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 20, 2013 2:18 am 
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I am not sure there is a lot of NEW info here?

I do agree that the Aruban police focused too much on van der Sloot to the exclusion of other possible avenues of investigation.

But as I have stated before, it was Beth Twitty and the ensuing nightly US news hysteria that demanded action against Joran, despite a lack of evidence. It seems to me quite plausible that Joran left NH on the beach (drunk) as he claimed.... and that some other person was then involved. It STILL seems most likely to me that she went on board or was taken on board one of the MANY international yachts coming and going (uninspected by authorities) the weekend of The Soul Beach Music Festival.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 20, 2013 1:47 pm 
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7-year-old lawsuit over Dr. Phil's Natalee Holloway show ongoing; defendants won't face punitive damages
By Erin Edgemon
on December 19, 2013 at 1:11 PM, updated December 19, 2013 at 1:15 PM

Dr. Phil McGraw and CBS Paramount Domestic Studios won’t have to pay punitive damages to plaintiffs in a lawsuit over a 7-year-old episode on the disappearance of Alabama native Natalee Holloway.

Deepak Kalpoe and Satish Kalpoe, residents of Aruba, who were questioned about Holloway’s disappearance by police, claim they were sought out by producers of the Dr. Phil Show and were secretly videotaped, according to The Hollywood Reporter.

The brothers are suing for defamation, invasion of privacy, infliction of emotional distress, misrepresentation and deceit. They also claim the videotaped interview was manipulated to make it appear Deepak had admitted to having sex with Holloway.

A California appeals court ruled Tuesday that Dr. Phil, CBS Paramount Domestic Studios and Peteski Productions will not face the possibility of having to pay punitive damages in the case because the brothers didn’t ask for a correction to the report within 20 days.

The case remains ongoing in a Los Angeles Superior Court and is awaiting a decision on the defendants' motion for summary judgment.

...more at link
http://blog.al.com/wire/2013/12/7-year- ... r_phi.html

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2014 7:14 am 
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The Natalee Holloway Files - secrets from the police archives
Published on Feb 7, 2014



Natalee Holloway vanished on Aruba in 2005 and was never found. In this new documentary, two investigative reporters try to find out what happened to her. They obtained the complete police files of the case.

The two journalists also wrote a book, 'The Holloway Files', which is now available from

The Holloway Files - secrets from the police archives

Natalee Holloway disappeared on the tropical island paradise of Aruba in 2005 and no trace of her was ever found. Now, for the first time, two renowned investigative journalists have managed to lay their hands on the secret police files of the Holloway case. They ask intriguing questions and provide disconcerting answers to one of the most evocative, baffling, and haunting crime mysteries of this century.

Significant and extraordinary excerpts from the official police dossier are included in this book. Read the actual official witness statements from the dozens of people involved; see transcripts of tapped phone conversations, and read the actual police interrogations of the infamous suspects.

This book and documentary exposes the bare facts of the Holloway case like never before. It gives the reader the sensation of sitting right there in the interrogation room with the detectives. For the first time, all the actual facts of the Holloway case are brought into the open, stripped of all media speculation and fanfare. The authors show that irreparable blunders were made by the Aruban police during the investigation. They also highlight the dubious alibis of the suspects in this case. Based on the authentic police files, they pose intriguing questions about facts that were insufficiently investigated at the time, such as: Whose male DNA was left on Natalee's toothbrush? Who entered Natalee's hotel room several times on the night that she disappeared? Why is it just assumed that Natalee was left on the beach - never to be seen again? Embark on a fascinating journey of deceit and intrigue, as you discover one of the most talked-about and perplexing unsolved mysteries of our time.

...more at link
http://www.thehollowayfiles.com/

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2014 5:32 am 
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Joran Van Der Sloot will be extradited to serve his sentence of 28 years
Sunday, March 9, 2014 | 24:07

Convicted of aesinato Peruvian Stephany Flores, Joran Van Der Sloot Dutch will be extradited to the U.S. , but in several years , when serve his sentence .

This indicates the Supreme Resolution No. 057-2014 -JUS published Sunday in the official gazette El Peruano , that in response to the request for extradition made by the Federal Court for the Northern District of Alabama U.S. .

He is quoted "to be prosecuted for the alleged offenses and Extortion Scam , to the detriment of Elizabeth Ann Holloway, and defer delivery until cumplimieto of the sentence required by the Third Criminal Court for Trials of Inmates in Prison Superior Court of Justice of Lima " .

It noted that Elizabeth Ann Holloway is the mother of Natalee Holloway , teen killed by Van Der Sloot whose body , years after his disappearance , has not yet appeared .

Van Der Sloot came to ask for $ 250,000 to the mother of his victim to disclose the missing teenager.

http://www.larepublica.pe/09-03-2014/el ... de-28-anos

Google translation

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 04, 2014 2:40 pm 
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Van der Sloot sets date for prison wedding
LIMA Thu Jul 3, 2014 1:39pm EDT

(Reuters) - Dutch citizen Joran Van der Sloot will marry his pregnant Peruvian girlfriend on Friday in prison, where the main suspect in the 2005 disappearance of American teenager Natalee Holloway is serving a 28-year sentence for a separate murder, his lawyer said.

Van der Sloot, 26, will marry Leidy Figueroa in Lima's Piedras Gordas penitentiary at midday in a small ceremony, his attorney Maximo Altez said on Thursday.

Figueroa, 24, met Van der Sloot while working in the prison selling candies and cigarettes and is expecting to give birth to his child in September, said Altez, who will be a witness at the wedding ceremony.

Conjugal visits are granted to all prisoners at Piedras Gordas, an official said.

...more at link
http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/07/ ... 3M20140703?

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 04, 2014 2:48 pm 
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From TalkLeft.....

Wedding Bells for Joran Van Der Sloot
By Jeralyn, Section Crime in the News
Posted on Fri Jul 04, 2014 at 08:04:00 AM EST

Gordas prison in Peru today. The couple are expecting their first child. Joran, who is serving a 28 year sentence for killing Peruvian Stephany Flores, met his bride while detained pending trial at Miguel Castro Castro prison in San Juan de Lurigancho, where she worked in a kiosk with her parents selling cigarettes and sundries.
[...]
I wonder how many people realize Joran Van der Sloot has never been charged with murdering Natalee Holloway -- either in Aruba or the U.S. He was arrested and detained twice in Aruba for investigation of her murder, but released when there was insufficient evidence to charge him. For years, Ms. Holloway's mother was on TV night after night, blasting him as her daughter's killer and accusing him of hiding information. He became a pariah at age 17, and for the next five years, was branded, hounded and as his lawyer put it, lived with a bulls-eye on his back.

Joran is paying for Flores' murder with a 28 year sentence in a notoriously difficult prison. The guilt-mongering media and public, who apparently would only be satisfied if he had been sentenced to life plus cancer, will begrudge his getting married, as if he is isn't entitled to even a smidgeon of contentment while imprisoned. I have no problem with it.
bbm

...more at link
http://www.talkleft.com/story/2014/7/4/ ... -Der-Sloot

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 04, 2014 3:06 pm 
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My comments at TalkLeft....


Quote:
by Rumpole on Fri Jul 04, 2014 at 02:05:29 PM EST
I wonder how strong the case is for "extortion"? Was there not MORE than a hint of "entrapment" at the time?
Subsequently details were aired as part of a Dutch Tabloid "documentary" with Beth Twitty apparently teaming up with Dutch Tabloid journalist Peter De Vrise for a series of Dutch TV shows including the infamous confrontation of Joran by Beth at Castro Castro prison etc. It all smacks of ulterior motive and "set up" for the extortion and subsequent contamination of evidence, witnesses, potential Jurors perhaps?
There was (and still is) a very vocal "Lynch Mob" in USA I wonder if Van Der Sloot could get a fair trial there.



Quote:
by Rumpole on Fri Jul 04, 2014 at 02:09:27 PM EST
I lovethe line:

"The guilt-mongering media and public, who apparently would only be satisfied if he had been sentenced to life plus cancer...."

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 18, 2014 10:23 am 
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Personally I do wish Joran had been sentenced to life or executed, Natalie Hollaway aside (I don't know enough about the case to have an opinion). Joran beat and strangled a young woman to death, he deserves a minimum of life in prison without parole, I'm assuming that Peru doesn't have the death penalty? Stephany Flores died a horrific violent death in absolute fear, he beat her and he strangled her, can you imagine the will to squeeze the life out of someone and watch them die at your hand, right in front of your eyes? I can't imagine the pain and fear she died in. I almost drowned so I know that suffocating feeling and panic of no oxygen, it is horrible.

Didn't Joran get a sandwich after he killed her and return to the room and eat it and then leave with her casino winnings? Or is that media propaganda, or me simply misremebering a fact? I have not delved into the case but I do know he violently murdered Stephany, no excuses. I think that he gets the pleasure of making love after having murdered Stephany is a travesty. I think him having the joy of having a wife and a child after purposfully brutally murdering a young woman is disgusting. Some one should do a study of how many "jailhouse" romances end well.

I defend Oscar because I believe the evidence points to his innocence when it comes to premeditated murder. I think the media is an agenda driven biased machine that condemns without evidence and crime forums are worse than the MSM. Is that what happen to Joran in the Hollaway case, I have no clue. Nor is it of any relevance to me, Jornan beat and strangled a woman to death there is simply no diluting that gruesome fact. As far as I'm concerned Joran can fuck off and die.

*Edited to add that I have gone and read a bit and Joran also smothered Stephany, which seems to be the final act of violence against her while she was living. Seems he didn't know what to do with his bloody shirt so he thought the best option was to shove it in Stephany's face. And yes I see he later recanted some of his confession saying he didn't understand it but Oh yes he did violently kill Stephany just the same. Good God.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 18, 2014 2:50 pm 
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I have ZERO support for Joran in regards the Murder in Peru!!

However.... in regards NH case... the hysteria at the time in US press and of course True Gossip Forums was, and remains, THE WORSE CASE of Lynch Mob Hysteria of all time. He was a 17 year old school boy when Natalee went missing. His life was turned on it's head. There was NO EVIDENCE OF A CRIME on Aruba, let alone any evidence linking Joran to whatever happened. THE most likely explanation (still speculation) is that Joran's worse crime was to abandon Natalee on the beach after having (consensual)sex with her. She was VERY drunk. Joran was no doubt a bastard to have had sex with her in that state and was a "cad" for leaving her drunk on the beach. Beyond that, as I say, no hard evidence. However, there was an annual International Music event on the weekend including the night NH went missing. "The Soul Beach Festival".. International Yachts were coming and going along the very beach that NH was on. There IS known to be drugs (and drug dealer types) coming and going via boat on Aruba. MOST LIKELY.. NH went on or was taken on a Yacht. Maybe drunk, but went as a choice, or even taken while comatose, or taken by force.. who knows (no evidence).
Meanwhile 17 year old Joran was labelled a Murderer (and rapist). Vilified in US media. Beth Twitty was on TV nightly pushing a narrative that there was no evidence to support. She and a posey of friends and hired detectives etc were also in Aruba "interfering" with the police investigation. SHE and her team found no evidence either. Joran (17) was locked up (twice) Once for 3 months in "solitary" with daily interrogation... aged 17! There was no evidence against Joran. Later there was local Judicial inquiry to support that. Then there was a DUTCH Judicial inquiry and further investigation by Dutch authorities and a Dutch police team. STILL no evidence.
I would contend that the vilification at age 17 "warped" Joran somewhat. Beth Twitty continued to hound him. Only after a few years did he begin these "stories for money" Tabloid things. Culminating in the extortion "set up" by Beth and FBI. It is sad (and Beth should regret) that the bank rolling of Joran, including assisting him to flee Aruba is what enabled Joran to travel to Peru and murder Stephany Flores.
Most countries do let criminals out of prison eventually (even murderers). I kinda prefer US system of LIFE being life and having the DP... but that is NOT how it is in places like Peru. Joran will get out eventually (unless he is murdered himself or catches some terminal disease). He will, have "done the time" for Flores Murder. I don't think he should be thrown to the US Lynch Mob after that. Nobody is really concerned about "Extortion"... they want Joran convicted of that as punishment for NH disappearance (murder) THAT is not how the Justice system should work. Further the Mob (and Beth) think that "all will be revealed" about NH's disappearance if they can just get Joran locked up (and interrogated) in a "proper" US prison. THAT is just plain silly and delusional. We all know that some US lawyer will take up Joran's case and he will be lawyered-up and silent. Anyway, remember he has been locked up (with no charges against him) already and interrogated for 3 months.... events that would NOT be allowed in USA. Especially with a 17 year old schoolboy defendant.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 18, 2014 9:15 pm 
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Again I can’t speak to the Hollaway case as I paid very little attention to it, but I believe that it could be just as you say it is, as I see it happening with the case of Oscar and Reeva. Mob rule is ugly, misinformed arrogant dogmatic mob rule is dangerous.

My issue with Joran is, even if he was wrongly accused of rape and murder, even if he was kept in jail for 3 months in solitary confinement, even if he was hounded by people who were arrogant self satisfied haters, who were more tickled at having someone to hate than they were in discovering what really happened to Natalie, even though he was only 17 when it all began, that does not excuse the violent murder of Stephany. People have experienced far worse and harmed no one.

Who would Joran be if the Hollaway case never landed at his feet? Only Joran knows. I don’t really care.

I agree that people should not want to use the extortion case as a proxy case for Natalie's disappearance to punish Joran for her death with no evidence.

But this is where we may disagree, if Joran is extradited to the US on extortion charges, tried and put away for more years, I will be pleased with that, as I think he has forfeited all rights to freedom by his malicious murder of Stephany. He is incarcerated in a country where the laws do not coincide with my view of justice.

In the US we are said to be a land of laws not men, so if our laws can keep a monster off the streets, I am in favor of Joran being off the streets as long as lawfully possible.

I think what I strongly take exception to is this line

"The guilt-mongering media and public, who apparently would only be satisfied if he had been sentenced to life plus cancer...."

Though after watching the mean spirited hatred spewed by people who refuse to acknowledge viable evidence in the Pistorius case I can say I am sure that there are some that feel that way about Joran. And if you cut it off before “plus cancer” you could count me among the people who wish the man had gotten life in prison without parole. But my position has nothing to do with Natalie and everything to do with Joran himself.

Joran is simply someone I can have no empathy for.

And yes we are supposed to be better than the monsters we incarcerate but "conjugal visits" is a little more than a smidgeon of contentment. IMO there is could sound reason to wish that Joran were incarcerated for life.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 18, 2014 10:51 pm 
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I will just add (in area we part company) IF Joran had been sentenced to longer by Peru.. I would have had no problem.

But.... Peru is Peru. He will have done his time there eventually.

The USA is USA... he does not deserve to do ANY time for NH case, and it is certainly NOT USA's job to add a bit on to Peru sentence :doh

NONE of the Mob posting from USA give a fuck about Stephanie Flores, or extortion!

They SAY they care about NH... but I do not believe even that!

They were convinced that NH was "the victim" (which she no doubt was) and then convinced themselves that Joran was "the perp"... the usual process to set up somebody to HATE!! And its imprinted and they will NEVER change. Many have stated they want Joran locked up, brutalized, raped and murdered by their guys in prison. They were disappointed when it did not happen in Peru, and they have stated that they are sure the inmates in USA will serve them better by raping and murdering Joran.

As for the ONLY legal card in play.. extortion. THAT is non-starter IMO. Entrapment is often a defense in such cases.. and it would not have been hard to claim that had Joran been tried at the time. Since then.... BETH well and truly blew it by discussing case details as a money making (Tabloid) venture. And Blatant confrontation of the defendant/witness. Her well publicized hounding of Joran for many years would probably be enough to make her testimony inadmissible in ANY case involving Joran and as I say, in this extortion case in particular... she blew it many times over. The rest of the witnesses and testimony will be VERY old and open to being discredited IF it were ever to come to trial. Besides... BETH is THE KEY witness in the extortion case. Without her as "victim" of extortion giving evidence there is no case.

There are many people around the world and especially in NZ that I would be happy to see locked up for longer... for ever, but they are not. They get out. However, Justice would not be served if they were all dragged over to USA to serve some extra time...... especially not for the crime in question, but for another crime that could not be proved.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 18, 2014 11:35 pm 
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I am not suggesting that Joran serve time for the Natalie case through a proxy extortion case. Nor should the US tack on time for the murder of Stephany to be served in the US.

If a case can be brought against Joran for extortion it should be brought against him. Because some morons might get pleasure from Joran being tried for the extortion case is no reason not to try him.


I believe you when you say this;

And its imprinted and they will NEVER change. Many have stated they want Joran locked up, brutalized, raped and murdered by their guys in prison.


I think that it is pathetic and that the imprinted mob is far more unhealthy emotionally and hateful than they could ever guess. I think that those who seek to make the evidence fit their theory, rather than be sure that their theory fits the evidence, have severe problems in that they are seeking to find someone to hate, and to be assured by a group of their peers that, yes indeed we can hate this person and hope that terrible things happen to them, I think it is deeply disturbing.

I am still more interested in justice than the mob not getting any satisfaction. I don't care if the mobs caring about Natalie is sincere or not. I don't care a wit about the mob.

I don’t think that the US or any country should get to do “clean up” but if an incarcerated perpetrator serves their term and there are pending charges and the country is one that shares in the extradition agreement then there is nothing wrong with handing a criminal over to the country where the crime was allegedly committed.

If Oscar is found not guilty and then goes on to beat, strangle, smother and rob a young woman I wouldn’t give a damn about his Steemkamp trial.

The "hands on" brutality of Stephany's death can not be dismissed.

Joran committed a horrifically brutal murder, to me that is the beginning and ending of the story. If he also committed extortion I hope he is tried, convicted and serves a term for that crime also.

Al Capone went to prison for tax evasion. Good on that prosecutor. I simply have no problem with keeping monsters off the street by any legal means possible.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 18, 2014 11:57 pm 
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Let me agree as far as to say. IF a case can be proved in regards extortion, in a fair and unbiased trial. Then I would be pleased to see Joran convicted.

However, as much as people CLAIM that the US Justice system is always fair and above board... it CLEARLY is NOT in many cases, GZ being an obvious example. I do not believe Joran COULD get a fair trial in USA (for any crime).. sad but true. What little I know of the extortion case (from Dutch Tabloid TV and BETH) is that it clearly WAS entrapment (IMO). The set up was willingly enterd into by Beth as always hoping to trap Joran and get leverage over him and force him to reveal info about NH (which he simply does not have IMO). Beth entered the "con" willingly on that basis. She did not believe he was legit and so in effect she was not "conned" at all. I doubt charges would have been laid and certainly not pursued for any other defendant, already incarcerated overseas on a more serious charge. So there is already "anti-Joran" Bias in the system continuing to pursue him.
I would not be surprised to see further legal submissions ahead of Joran's extradition. The DUTCH government may perhaps want to way in on an extradition into a country where a Lynch mob mentality existed.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 19, 2014 12:19 am 
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Well you will not find me stating that the US system is not flawed, it was designed be fair and it has many safeguards but it is obvious that it is flawed and that juries can run with a bias good or bad toward the accused and cases are decided on matters other than the law far too often.

The fact that Zimmerman was acquitted is hopeful, the fact that the case was brought to court at all, not so much.

I can't speak to the specifics of the extortion case, Joran can get as fair of a trial as any high profile defendant. Look at Zimmerman, a fair verdict was rendered even though the guy was demonized by the populous and the MSM.

People are paid big bucks to be juror specialists, because a verdict is only as good as the jurors, unfortunately an educated, critical thinking, unbiased jury seems to be getting harder to find.

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