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 Post subject: Gun Control
PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 3:42 am 
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To paraphrase my previous Avatar persona......

"Just when I though I could avoid "Politics"........ they pulled me back in!"

"Take the gun control topic.... leave the cannoli"


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 Post subject: Re: Gun Control
PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 4:40 am 
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Avoid politics you thought you could, Obi-Wan? LOL. I am not sure I am going to go all full-clip on anyone.

My thought is that you are never going to get all the guns out of the hands of criminals. People have a right to defend themselves. Just for convenience and practicality I would prefer a handgun. I used to have one but gave it up because I am Bipolar. It isn't that I was concerned about harming others but the potential to harm myself was great. I would still have it if it weren't for a moment of clarity.

The best hope is to get them away from people with mental health issues to avoid these mass shootings. Those have been going on since Charles Whitman and the University of Texas shootings back in 1966. To do that you need extensive background checks and a willingness by psychiatrists and psychologists to report people who may be at risk.

Enter the Hypocratic Oath.
The Declaration of Geneva, as currently amended, reads:
AT THE TIME OF BEING ADMITTED AS A MEMBER OF THE MEDICAL PROFESSION:
I SOLEMNLY PLEDGE to consecrate my life to the service of humanity;
I WILL GIVE to my teachers the respect and gratitude that is their due;
I WILL PRACTICE my profession with conscience and dignity;
THE HEALTH OF MY PATIENT will be my first consideration;
I WILL RESPECT the secrets that are confided in me, even after the patient has died;
I WILL MAINTAIN by all the means in my power, the honour and the noble traditions of the medical profession;
MY COLLEAGUES will be my sisters and brothers;
I WILL NOT PERMIT considerations of age, disease or disability, creed, ethnic origin, gender, nationality, political affiliation, race, sexual orientation, social standing or any other factor to intervene between my duty and my patient;
I WILL MAINTAIN the utmost respect for human life;
I WILL NOT USE my medical knowledge to violate human rights and civil liberties, even under threat;
I MAKE THESE PROMISES solemnly, freely and upon my honour.

Therein lies the rub.

IMO, service to humanity and utmost respect for human life trumps all others.


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 Post subject: Re: Gun Control
PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 5:18 am 
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I just remembered... I did start a "Weekly Poll" on whether people owned a gun (had a gun in their home)

viewtopic.php?f=63&t=688

You can respond anonymously.. of course. And it's in the members only area.

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 Post subject: Re: Gun Control
PostPosted: Sat Feb 09, 2013 3:59 pm 
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Methinks there will be a lot more criminals if and when they put too much control on gun ownership. And although it is good to try to screen owners for mental problems we'd best be very wary. How will they define the disorder (and it's been claimed that the DSM which will come out with number 5 soon leans toward some particular agendas) and who will be qualified to make a dx. It seems we already have non-credited "experts" testifying in courts so it is something to think about.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2013 1:10 am 
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I'm not a hateful person but these Lefty Liberals cause me to want to twist them up into a pretzel & damn those people are infuriating.


Racism linked with gun ownership and opposition to gun control in white Americans

A new study has found that higher levels of racism in white Americans is associated with having a gun in the home and greater opposition to gun control policies.

The research, published in PLoS One, was led by Dr Kerry O'Brien from The University of Manchester and Monash University and used data from a large representative sample of white US voters.


After accounting for numerous other factors such as income, education and political ideology, the researchers found that for each one point increase (on a scale from one to five) in symbolic racism there was a 50 percent increase in the odds of having a gun in the home and a 28 percent increase in support for policies allowing people to carry concealed guns.


Each one point increase in symbolic racism (a modern measure of anti-black racism) was also associated with a 27 percent increase in the odds of opposing bans on hand guns in the home. After accounting for those who already had a gun in the home, the odds were reduced to a non-significant 17 percent increase. However, the authors note that this reduction is unsurprising as opposition to bans on guns equates to self interest on behalf of those who already own a gun and do not wish to give it up. And racism was already strongly associated with having a gun in the home.


The research was stimulated by gun control debates in the US after mass shootings such as the Sandy Hook tragedy, and research showing that with all things being equal black Americans are more likely to be shot than whites. The most recent figures show that there are approximately 38,000 gun related deaths in the US each year. With other research suggesting that having a gun in the home is related to a 2.7 and 4.8 fold increase in the risk of a member of that home dying from homicide or suicide, respectively.


Dr O'Brien said: "Coming from countries with strong gun control policies, and a 30-fold lower rate of gun-related homicides, we found the arguments for opposing gun control counterintuitive and somewhat illogical. For example, US whites oppose gun control to a far greater extent than do blacks, but whites are actually more likely to kill themselves with their guns, than be killed by someone else. Why would you keep them? So we decided to examine what social and psychological factors predict gun ownership and opposition to gun control."


Conservatism, anti-government sentiment, party identification, being from a southern state, were also associated with opposition to gun controls, but the association between racism and the gun-related outcomes remained after accounting for these factors and other participant characteristics (age, education, income, gender).


Symbolic racism supplanted old-fashioned or overt/blatant racism which was associated with open support for race inequality and segregation under 'Jim Crow Laws', but it still captures the anti-black sentiment and traditional values that underpinned blatant racism. Symbolic racism has also been found to be related to stronger opposition to policies that may benefit blacks (e.g. welfare), and greater support for policies that seem to disadvantage blacks (e.g. longer prison sentences).


Study co-author Dr Dermot Lynott, from Lancaster University, said: "We were initially surprised that no one had studied this issue before; however, the US government cut research funding for gun-related research over decade and a half ago, so research in this area has been somewhat suppressed."


Dr O'Brien said: "According to a Pew Research Center report the majority of white Americans support stricter gun control, but the results of our study suggest that those who oppose gun reform tend to have a stronger racial bias, tend to be politically and ideologically conservative and from southern states, and have higher anti-government sentiment."


He added: "The study is a first step, but there needs to be more investment in empirical research around how racial bias may influence people's policy decisions, particularly those policies that impact on the health and wellbeing of US citizens."

http://www.plosone.org/article/info%...l.pone.0077552
http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0077552

Edit Rumpole
I fixed link (assume I have correct article)
If you copy a link posted somewhere else it is often abbreviated with ......... in the url
You need to view page you want to link to and get full url.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2013 1:25 am 
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My first reaction was to delete this as a POLITICAL topic... but I have taken a look... and it does not HAVE to be discussed as a "Tit-for-tat" party political topic. Stick to the "facts" and the underlying concepts and it could be a good discussion.

So... no need for "Obama" or "Bush" to be mentioned.... k?

Consider the pro's and cons of citizen's owning guns... not the political position adopted by either party or party candidate at any given time... it changes depending on audience and what position helps attract votes... so it is not really a position at all.


My opinion is not strictly "on topic"... I am not an American :)
But FWIW......I have always lived in a country with no hand guns and cops unarmed (mostly) and yet I see the sense in responsible gun ownership. I think the GZ case, if nothing else, was a big endorsement of the sense in the law whereby a citizen can carry a weapon to defend himself. Thank heavens George Zimmerman had a gun and so AVERTED a real tragedy.
My opinion is not based on "race" but rather a belief that I have a right to defend myself (and others) if need arises. I certainly have NO FAITH in "the authorities" doing so... they likely would not be there when need arises... and further more... unlikely to be of much help after the fact. That is the way things are.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2013 6:52 am 
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I am sure if someone looks hard enough long enough they will find some sort of racism in EVERYONE for EVERYTHING. I notice this particular study was of whites only, a research study is only as good as results wanted, i.e. a blind study.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2013 8:16 am 
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I agree Berta... racism or sexism, or whatever ism people want to label others with. It is all part of the PC play-book.

As far as this study goes:

"Measures of two key types of racism against blacks were taken from the ANES for analyses: symbolic racism and implicit racial attitudes."

Sounds like crap to me... academic babble.

As far as "analysis" goes... if you play wih numbers enough... you can always find some sort of "statistical relationship"
Statistics do not lie... but liars use statistics.

And a "statistical link" between variables proves....... NOTHING.

Did you know that 98% of people who die from cancer have been found to leave a partially consumed bottle of milk in their fridge (I made that number up just to illustrate a point)... does that mean that milk CAUSES cancer? Of course not... but there certainly is that statistical link between people who die from cancer.. and milk consumption. That is a statistical link... but NOT a cause and effect link. A Scientific study is about hypothesizing (cause and effect) links.. and not just matching numbers by statistical analysis.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2013 10:21 am 
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WHAT? milk doesn't cause cancer? LOL love the analogy! Just another day in paradise...


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2013 2:26 pm 
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I had a lot to say on the topic but I can agree it's more political rather than an attack against White Americans & guns in America.
Better to just let this one go.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2013 2:50 pm 
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I know it is Democrats who tend to be anti guns... at least in favour of more control... and Republicans who are "pro-guns" and the 2nd Amendment. That is the way it is... a Party position. There are exceptions (I could not cite any off the top of my head) and the principles around the right to own a gun and any restrictions can be discussed without referring to what some brainless Political hack says is his (or her) position. A politician's stated position is designed to play to their audience.. rather than a reason-based view. It typically changes depending on the audience at the time... so why bother with such opinions?

I think this study was done with a pre-concieved agenda..... the usual Libtard thing... no need to really take it that seriously.

We can still discuss the issue... what this or that politician says about it is irrelevant.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2013 9:44 pm 
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I've never labeled myself politically and have never been a card-carrying anything. The reason for this is that I agree with some of the philosophies of each political party, and disagree with some of each also. One of the stances I agree with is the 2nd amendment right to own firearms. And I also believe the study by Dr. O'Brien is flawed and biased. Gun ownership is not motivated racially. It's not a black and white thing. It's the law-abiding people versus the criminal element thing. Mr. O'Brien attempts to brand white Americans as very stupid since it is the epitome of stupidity to base one's opinion on any person by the color of his skin rather than his behavior.

Despite my pro-gun ownership stance I, personally, do not own a gun. Actually, I have a firearm phobia. Touching a gun would be tantamount to me touching a snake. But I've lived around guns most of my life. I worked many years in law enforcement surrounded by officers carrying guns. I was married to a deputy sheriff for many years who always had several firearms in our house. But I believe in the right for others to have and carry firearms legally. I actually feel safer knowing, when in a crowd of people, if anyone threatens harm to anyone there is a chance that at least one person may be armed and may protect those of us who are not armed.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2013 9:53 pm 
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I feel the same way, seeing_eye. :)

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2013 9:56 pm 
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Well said... seeing_eye.

I don't have any hang-ups about guns... not sure I would if they were allowed in NZ?

Politically.. I do tend to agree with the "right" more often than the "left"... but my only political commitment was to the establishing of a "Libertarian" party in NZ.... and I have long since parted from them. I believe it is possible to be not on the LEFT-RIGHT continuum at all...but outside it (above it)... looking down and perhaps slotting in at various places both left and right... though the extremes of that continuum are CONTROL of the individual by government... and so the "line" in fact loops around to be the same in effect at either extreme.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2013 10:58 pm 
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I guess if I have to lean one way or the other I would lean more to the conservative party in that I believe in freedom and less government. I believe in the individual over the collective. But I don't agree with the conservative philosophy about hunting and animal rights. I don't agree with the conservative's philosophy about the "sanctity of life" when it concerns only humans. I think all life should be considered sacred in that I believe all life is a part of the "supreme creator." But I think liberals have ruined several generations of Americans by their indoctrinations of students in the public school system. And liberals have taken political correctness to absurd positions.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2013 11:24 pm 
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I am a "hopeless romantic" I would like to see true citizen's representatives in office... at all levels.. especially as President. People who state honestly held beliefs.. and actually stick to them. It's a dream it will never happen.... PARTIES are what govern and not individual members of parties.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2013 11:31 pm 
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I would like to see the same thing. But I've always believed all politicians to be crooked. Too bad some are outright blatant liars.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 9:07 am 
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Love it about the milk in the fridge. Made a good point. And as far as stats it seems they can be construed to fit whatever you want them to fit.

I'm pro gun despite the fact that my own mother was killed by a gun. And I have no doubt that getting rid of guns in the United States would not even affect the criminals who would most likely always have access.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 11:35 am 
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Being a Liberal type, I firmly believe in gun rights. I have had quite a few through out my life starting at about age 7. If the entire "Liberal left" were against it 33 states would be without Castle Doc/SYG. What I don't like about that study is that they only did it with white people. The lower the education the higher the degree of racism. IMO, the lower the education is cross-cultural.

Why is it that no one wants to account for biases and racism that are in minorities? It is certainly out there. There are racists Whites that think that Blacks are the devil incarnate just as some Blacks perceive Whites. Blacks are the worst at discriminating against other Blacks. Asians have biases against other Asians varying on what area the come from. Hawaiian versus Samoans.... and on and on.

On Mental Health and handguns and rifles, I believe a test (like a mini MMPI) should be included before licenses are issued. It would not stop mass shootings, IMO nothing will ever stop that, but it could lower domestic and suicides. During an episode of serious depression, I had a moment of clarity and got rid of my handgun. I know that I can no longer keep one around because I fear I will use it on myself. The only one other time...I was ready to use it against another.

My Grandfather taught me how to shoot and he stressed personal responsibility. He gave me a hard lesson with his 18 gauge shotgun when I was about 12 that I still remember to date.

Everyone has the absolute right to defend themselves. My thought is that it should read instead of "anti-gun" PRO-RESPONSIBLITY.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 2:07 pm 
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YOU are a closet "red-neck" :lol

Not a libtard at all... :cool

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