I had to make a decision like that also. My mom wound up on life support after fighting lung cancer for 6 years. Even though she had a living will, and didn't want machines keeping her alive, having to give my permission to the doctors to remove her from life support was the most difficult thing I ever had to do.

Her family needs to think of her. Would she want to "live" that way?

_________________

Sorry to hear you had to go through that, Mal
(no wonder you now struggle with making decisions)
I was just one of a whole group of family members... but we were unanimous. I do recall it involved being told by hospital medical and support staff all the facts, the alternatives etc What happened next for each alternative. A lot of questioning by us and discussion amongst ourselves etc..... but there was time to consider it all and make a RATIONAL decision. Obviously it is a time when emotion is foremost amongst family members, but that needs to be tempered by the advice of hospital staff and perhaps other trusted advisors... religious/spiritual etc. It seems in this case a lawyer imposed himself in the middle and rational decision making went out the window.

_________________
Do not go gentle into that good night.
___________ Rage, rage against the dying of the light

Delay in Jahi McMath Autopsy Complicates Cause of Death Ruling: Experts
By Lisa Fernandez | Monday, Jan 6, 2014 | Updated 5:33 PM PST

The three-week battle to keep a brain-dead Oakland girl on a ventilator could complicate efforts to determine Jahi McMath's precise cause of death, some experts say.

The Alameda County Coroner issued a death certificate for the 13-year-old girl Friday, 23 days after Jahi was declared brain dead, but said the document is incomplete because no cause of death has been determined pending an autopsy, which has yet to take place.

"When you don't get an exam relatively quickly, it puts everything into dispute," said Arthur Caplan, head of the Division of Bioethics at New York University Langone Medical Center in New York City and a regular NBC News contributor. "The evidence into what caused the bleeding will be harder to determine, and the ability to show what happened - and the liability - will become way more difficult. The more time you delay, the more difficult it is to establish cause of death because you've lost control of some of the evidence."
[...]
P. Michael Murphy, past president of the International Association of Coroners and Medical Examiners Association and the current Coroner of Clark County in Las Vegas, acknowledged that there can be subtle to pronounced changes that occur to a body after brain death. He has no personal knowledge of Jahi's case, but has been following it closely in the media.

But he added that forensic pathologists are typically "very good at deciphering" how people died in various "degrees and conditions." Murphy also added that, in most cases, hospitals keep meticulous details of a patient's records, which often aid medical examiners on what led up to death.

"The quicker the exam, the better, certainly," Murphy said by phone on Monday. "But they are trained to report on what they find."

...more at link
http://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local/De ... 45011.html

_________________
Do not go gentle into that good night.
___________ Rage, rage against the dying of the light

I think her soul is free now. She's deceased. There is no brain activity so she's not there any longer. Her body now is just a shell that's been vacated.

I was watching Mike Huckabee's TV show. I normally agree with his usually common sense opinions, therefore I was really shocked to hear him say that Jahi's condition was caused by a botched operation. There has been no evidence to indicate that is true. (It may be true, but we have as yet seen no evidence of it.) This is just one more instance of where the media makes a flat statement as though it is "gospel" when there is no corroboration evidence at all. (Remember Zimmerman!) He also had on the brother of Terri Schiavo who said he was helping the family in their fight with the hospital as well as another guest, a musician. Both guests attempted to back the family's efforts by telling their own experiences. We all know Schiavo was in a vegetative state and was not brain dead, so that story is not relevant at all. The musician said he had a relative who the doctors all gave up hope on. He said she had a brain injury, but at one time said she was brain dead and later recovered despite what the doctors had said. I think both guests did not know the difference between a coma or vegetative state with brain death. Huckabee stated he thought it should be the family's decision whether or not their child is dead. Hello!!!! Sometimes it is only a justice of peace who makes that decision!

Huckabee also insinuated the doctors valued her worth less than others because of their decision she is deceased. (How did he come up with that idea?) He also criticized the hospital spokesman because he spoke of Jahi as a "body." Or the "deceased." I always thought that medical persons generally referred to deceased people in that manner.

After this show, I'm going to rethink anything on which Huckabee has ever had an opinion.

I have seen speculation about what actually "caused" the death, not necessarily a "botched" operation at all, but as you say, it is premature to be speculating at all until the facts are known.
There is risk with any medical procedure... problems are NOT always caused by errors. And exactly what happened post-op is yet to be documented.

Huckabee.... yes I sort of like him normally... but I have not watched his show for a while. Sounds like I would be put off him too from what you say.

_________________
Do not go gentle into that good night.
___________ Rage, rage against the dying of the light

I watch Huckabee every week. I've never seen him acting so "brain dead" before. I don't know what happened to him.

Over at the link to KZ...( I heart me some KZ. Been an admirer of her since the Hinky Meter days!) I thought that this was one of the best comments on there. The case becomes more about Winkfield than it is about Jahi. IMO, her mother...for whatever motivations ranging from religious beliefs, her own personal delusions, or financial gain...no longer has the best interest of her child in mind. So how is she handling this with Jahi's sister?



http://docbastard.blogspot.com/2013/12/ ... ation.html



This is the "doctor" I was talking about earlier in the thread. He is despicable. There are a couple of threads about the Jahi McMath case written by DocBastard that are very informative. He is no nonsense. I am bookmarking his page as this plays out.

Jahi's body is simply decomposing from the inside out. Why would her family want to see this occur? Although Jahi herself may not feel this, it seems horrible, to me, to allow this. Can People take their dead kin from the ME's office home? She went from the hospital to the MEs given a death certificate. I don't know.

Even if the Hospital is at fault for her death, she is now dead and "feeding" her will not change it.

Deb- Thanks for the link, I am going to bookmark it too!

Experts: Clock Ticking for Calif. Brain Dead Teen
SAN FRANCISCO January 7, 2014 (AP)
By TERRY COLLINS and LISA LEFF Associated Press

AP - The family of a 13-year-old California girl who was declared brain dead after suffering complications from sleep apnea surgery has achieved its goal of moving the girl to a new facility for long-term care, but medical experts say the ventilator she's on will not work indefinitely.

Jahi McMath's uncle said Monday that she is now being cared for at a facility that shares their belief that she still is alive.

While the move ends what had been a very public and tense fight with the hospital, it also brings new challenges: caring for a patient whom three doctors have said is legally dead because, unlike someone in a coma, there is no blood flow or electrical activity in either her cerebrum or the brain stem that controls breathing.

...more at link
http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/expe ... n-21444144

_________________
Do not go gentle into that good night.
___________ Rage, rage against the dying of the light

I have read a couple of things posted about the family not following instructions after surgery which could have caused the bleeding which resulted in her dealth. I wonder if someone is giving this family all this false hope just until the body is in bad enough shape that they can not say exactly what happended to the child in order to be able to sue the hospital.

Yes, I generally like him, and saw this hour after not seeing him for a while. I have to agree with Seeing Eye above. To be charitable, it was very shallow thinking on his part,
Mike

http://www.mercurynews.com/science/ci_2 ... ody-may-be


A day after winning the three-week battle to take their brain-dead daughter from Children's Hospital Oakland, the family of Jahi McMath conceded Monday they are losing the ghastly war against nature.

Her body, checked in at an undisclosed care facility Monday morning, has deteriorated so badly, that "Right now, we don't know if she's going to make it," said attorney Christopher Dolan.

"She's in very bad shape," he said. "What I can tell you is that those examinations show that her medical condition, separate from the brain issue, is not good."

Dolan's frank and sober assessment echoes a Friday legal declaration by Children's Hospital Oakland critical care pediatrician Dr. Heidi R. Flori, who opposed surgical insertion of a feeding tube because the girl's body was deteriorating.

Thanks, Berta

"Right now, we don't know if she's going to make it," said attorney Christopher Dolan.

This guy is unreal

Of course they KNOW they are pumping oxygen into a corpse and dragging it around!!!

If this is NOT illegal.... it should be!!

_________________
Do not go gentle into that good night.
___________ Rage, rage against the dying of the light

Jahi McMath's lawyer thinks families, not doctors, should determine death
By Karin Klein
January 7, 2014, 2:48 p.m.




Could the case of Jahi McMath get much worse? Yes, apparently. According to a report by CBS San Francisco, the lawyer for Jahi’s family is saying that her case might set a precedent for future cases of brain death. And then the lawyer, Christopher Dolan, came out with this legal zinger, according to CBS:

“Dolan said that families — not a doctor — should determine death and that anything less would be a violation of the family’s right to freedom of religion.”

Now, it appears, things are tipping over from one rare and upsetting situation into a truly nonsensical idea about overturning our entire legal concept of death. Under state law, families do not declare death. Doctors declare death. What if a family decided a relative was dead before the hospital said it was so? And what sort of long-term care would be devoted to cadavers under this kind of scenario? For how long? And at whose expense? What about societal rules on the correct and respectful way to treat the bodies of the deceased?

...more at link
http://www.latimes.com/opinion/opinion- ... z2pkyd94Bo

_________________
Do not go gentle into that good night.
___________ Rage, rage against the dying of the light

I am going to dig my grandma up, I miss her and I don't believe she died 13 years ago, the doctors must have been wrong.

His thinking was certainly not consistent with his normally common sense type of thinking. I was really disillusioned.

This is why I am going to be cremated! No Dr. Frankenstein for me, please.

I often see business opportunities....

I see many here.... one that springs to mind is.... TAXIDERMY... a unit attached to every hospital to preserve loved ones before dragging them home..... still officially alive.

It would be nice to keep relatives... perhaps sitting in living room chairs... or scattered casually about the place as cushions.

Of course it would be a bonus that all such relatives could presumably still collect Welfare and other payments

_________________
Do not go gentle into that good night.
___________ Rage, rage against the dying of the light

You are a freakin genius! I want US rights to it. We need remote control power chairs so you can move them around where you want them. Hey does it work for pets too?